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Post by schnautzr on Oct 3, 2009 1:05:33 GMT
Sorry...the Thursday poll is a bit late because I am busy trying to win a girl's heart right now... lame excuse, I know! With the recent news about Ardipithecus, it got me wondering what other people think about evolution from apes to humans. I'd be happy to discuss my opinion if you guys like, and I'd like to hear yours, too. It's difficult to think of all the possible opinions, so if yours isn't there, don't be afraid to check Other and discuss. Remember, this is a sensitive topic, so no flaming. Stay civil.
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mantooth02
Researcher
Dieter the Saurornitholestes [F4:ManTooth02]
Posts: 134
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Post by mantooth02 on Oct 3, 2009 1:24:29 GMT
I voted yes, but we aren't chimpanzees. Ardipithecus proves that we and chimps diverged a very long time ago from an ancestor that was nether chimp nor human. We are however apes. Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives sharing more DNA in common with ours than they do with Gorillas. If both the distantly related chimps and gorillas are apes then so are we, it makes sense no other way. As for souls. I find it difficult to believe that every animal in earth's history from simple sponges to dolphins and chimpanzees are all soulless and humans are not. I'm not saying that I even believe in a soul, I just don't think we would be the only species to possess one if they do exist.
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Post by schnautzr on Oct 3, 2009 4:03:21 GMT
Ah...I hadn't thought about the nonexclusive soul theory. Thanks for bringing that point up. Actually, the exclusivity of souls in humans easier for me to believe in since I've been raised that way, and it hasn't been until VERY recently that I accepted that humans could possibly have evolved from apes.
I suppose I should define my view of a soul before I go any further...
Brain - contains knowledge, memories, skills, enacts choices based upon soul's decision Soul - point of view, makes the actual choices
It's very difficult for me to picture something like a plant having a soul (especially since it has no brain), although there are those who will argue it does, and those who will even argue rocks have souls as well. Because it's simple for me to picture this in a plant, it's simple as well to picture a creature like coral or sponge without a soul. Creatures displaying cephalization are much more difficult, probably because they display more signs of intelligence and individuality. However, to me, animals are without a soul, just creatures doing things based on science and probability alone. They may have feelings and appear to make actual choices, but there's not really anyone inside looking through those eyes and making choices.
Now that I've expressed my view, I FULLY expect somebody to say something, since my view is not widely accepted by scientists.
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mantooth02
Researcher
Dieter the Saurornitholestes [F4:ManTooth02]
Posts: 134
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Post by mantooth02 on Oct 4, 2009 3:10:30 GMT
They may have feelings and appear to make actual choices, but there's not really anyone inside looking through those eyes and making choices. Ouch, that kinda hurt and I'm not even a member of another species. I think further research into the animal mind is needed on your part, animals aren't emotionless machines of nature. Personally I don't believe in a soul or that intelligence is need for one. I believe in energy, the life force that is present in all living things. I believe in the molecules that make us what we are. I believe those things can never truly die and thus never can we. Like I said in the Sporum, we're all made of the same stuff. The carbon in my body is the same carbon that was in the bodies of the dinosaurs, the air I breath is the same air breathed by the first amphibians. To me that is more magical than any religion and more poetic than the concept of a soul present only in humans due to our reasoning capabilities. I cannot believe we are the owners of souls above all else when we make conscious choices that negativity effect ourselves and all other life on this planet and we knowingly commit atrocious acts on our own kind. Humans are unique animals indeed but it has nothing to do with a soul, we just got too smart for our own (or the planets) good. We commit horrid acts unlike anything in the animal kingdom and the real kicker is, we actually know better.
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Post by schnautzr on Oct 4, 2009 21:30:33 GMT
I agree with nearly all of what you just said, although I think you misunderstood me when I said animals do have feelings and intelligence. Those are products of the brain. So what's your definition of "soul", since you seem agnostic (for lack of better words) on whether it exists even in humans?
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hermes888
Researcher
Pterafrax the Quetzalcoatlus [F4:Hermes888]
Posts: 188
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Post by hermes888 on Oct 5, 2009 21:46:46 GMT
The idea of "souls" creep me out, and not in the ghost way. I get upset if I think about how other animals wouldn't have souls, so I just think everyone has a mind of their own, and so do animals, and that we just live, die, and that we live on after death as a kind of ghost without anyone seeing us, what some people experience during NDEs and Comas. I don't believe in ghosts though. I think we are apes, but not chimps or bonobos. I feel we are animals, and we have no need to be above the rest of them. I actually believe that our species is lower than other animals. I have no problems with what others believe in religion-wise. I hope I didn't offend anyone!
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Post by schnautzr on Oct 6, 2009 6:29:37 GMT
Didn't offend me at all. Hermes, you say you think we're lower than other animals...care to elaborate? That's one I don't think I've heard before.
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mantooth02
Researcher
Dieter the Saurornitholestes [F4:ManTooth02]
Posts: 134
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Post by mantooth02 on Oct 6, 2009 22:31:21 GMT
I don't think we're lower than other animals nor higher. Our system of classification is perfectly designed...to ensure we're number one but every animal that is currently here is on it's own evolutionary path, some of which will no doubt outlast our own.
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Post by schnautzr on Oct 7, 2009 5:15:53 GMT
War of the Worlds...the microbes win. Maybe evolution isn't such a hot idea, after all. lol.
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